Anneli Marinovich (00:00)
Welcome back to the Mind and Muscle Beyond 40 podcast. Now we spend quite a bit of time talking about mind and muscle on this podcast, but today we're going to focus on the engine room that powers both your guts. If you're a woman over 40 and you are battling symptoms like menopause, bloats, brain fog, energy crashes, you might be missing the most critical piece of the performance puzzle.
Joining me today on the podcast, very exciting, is the wonderful Kara Wheatley-McGrane, the author of Mindful Gut. Now Kara actually transformed her own life-threatening battle with Crohn's disease into a blueprint for midlife resilience. And she's here to show us how a mindful gut is the key to building a stronger mind and a leaner body after 40.
Anneli Marinovich (00:47)
Kara, welcome. Thank you for joining me.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (00:49)
Hello, I'm really happy to be here. β So hello to everybody out there watching.
Anneli Marinovich (00:54)
So Cara and I first met β last year at the MindBody Festival at Olympia in May, was it? Yeah. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (01:01)
Yes, yeah, we did.
Yeah, we had a lovely catch up after my talk and, yeah, compared notes. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (01:05)
Yeah,
she had a wonderful talk and I just remember thinking to myself when I launched the podcast, Cara is to come into the podcast. So here we are almost a year later. But yeah, thank you for joining me. And I want to kind of just jump straight in. Can you tell us why the gut and not just the gym is a really key element of the front line for women in period menopause in this particular phase of their lives?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (01:30)
I love that question. And my approach is always holistic. So I love that we're talking about the gym and the role of the gym. And I know that's a lot of your work is around that. But the gut is such an extraordinary area of discovery at the moment. There's so much emerging. And one of the really exciting things about gut health in the last few years is that the conversation has really opened up to the differences between the male and female digestive system.
Anneli Marinovich (01:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (01:58)
and in particular around the impact of our fluctuating hormones on our overall digestive health and particularly on our gut health. And we also know that there are significant changes happening to our, I like to call it our inner ecosystem, our gut garden. Yeah, yeah. So there's things happening to our gut garden, our gut microbiome.
Anneli Marinovich (02:14)
Love the gut garden, I love that term. I remember last year I thought the gut garden, isn't that so beautiful? Love it.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (02:28)
during perimenopause and menopause that start to have a real impact on our overall health. And this is an important piece of the puzzle that we weren't really aware of 10, 20 years ago, but new research is really opening up this aspect of women's health that I think is really important for many women of our generation, younger, older, to be aware of.
Anneli Marinovich (02:51)
Exactly. I think one of the key things that I come across with a woman that I work with is you can't really even talk about the strength training element or hitting the gym if your gut is not functioning properly and if you're not feeling yourself. And I remember listening to a podcast a couple of years ago where they were talking about the gut brain axis and we'll get into that in a little bit, but our guts as women, your gut is the center.
of your being and if your gut isn't functioning properly then everything else feels off, doesn't it?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (03:23)
I really agree with you. And I think we know that, I think our language reveals how powerful the gut is. We have gut feelings, we have instincts. I think as women, we have stronger gut intuitions. I think we're wired to have more sensitivity to how those gut feelings drive our responses and our behaviours. And yet I think to some degree in our culture, that's been kind of repressed or forgotten. And I think it's a really exciting time to be bringing the gut more centrally to our health, our wellbeing.
Anneli Marinovich (03:30)
Mm.
Mm. Mm.
β
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (03:53)
and also RNA wisdom.
Anneli Marinovich (03:55)
That's it. That's it. I love that. β So that, yeah. So I guess what is interesting to me is that you've been on quite a journey yourself, haven't you? So you've been on the journey of nearly losing your colon to Crohn's disease, which must have been, I can't even imagine being in that situation, but I, would you be willing to share with us, you know, the moment when you were hours away from surgery and how that sparked your shift from, I suppose, fighting your body, instead of fighting your body, you then
turn to listening to your body. Do you want to talk us a little bit through that?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (04:29)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for inviting the question. just to be clear, have the condition I was living with was ulcerative colitis. So it's the kind of a sister of Crohn's. It's the same inflammatory bowel disease. I had systemic inflammation throughout my whole of my colon, the large intestine, this beautiful part of our digestive system where our gut microbiome lives. I didn't know any of that at the time. So this happened.
Anneli Marinovich (04:32)
Boom.
Wow. Wow, okay. Okay.
Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (04:58)
when I was very young, 25 years ago. And I was studying at university in London. It kind of like busy, quite a perfectionist, I would say. My personality was always to do things really well and then do more. Lots of stress, like that kind of... I had to that time of identity formation in your early 20s when you're trying to work out who you are. And I was diagnosed with IBD.
Anneli Marinovich (05:13)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (05:26)
after a long period of back and forth, back and forth to my GP. And I know a lot of people who have digestive issues, often struggle to get a diagnosis to understand what's going on or there's the umbrella term of IBS, irritable bowel syndrome were given, but not always clarity. So I was given a clear diagnosis. And then very soon after that diagnosis, about a year later, the inflammation in my system was so intense.
Anneli Marinovich (05:36)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (05:55)
I ended up going to A &E and it was a really, really tough time. It was a period of real fear and confusion. And when you're young, you're often not prepared for being so.
Anneli Marinovich (05:57)
goodness.
No.
And how old were you at that point?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (06:12)
I was in my early 20s and I β literally was just experiencing this sense of being just so inflamed and so much pain. And then when I arrived into hospital, they made a decision to put me on intravenous steroids. But because the level of inflammation was so extensive, they basically took my mom to one side and said, β if Carl doesn't respond, will.
Anneli Marinovich (06:14)
My goodness, yeah.
Mm. Mm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (06:42)
actually have to get surgery to remove her colon because the inflammation's not there. And fortunately, I've responded over the next few days, I responded to the intravenous steroids. It was a really extraordinary time and I had a kind of a bit of a glimpse that I felt like I wasn't my body, a little bit of kind of almost experience being separate from my body, looking at myself and having this moment of real clarity and compassion.
Anneli Marinovich (06:46)
My goodness. Wow.
β
Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (07:11)
and feeling like, wow, how can I take care of myself? And when I left hospital a few weeks later, I had this real like, my goodness, isn't it like you don't know what you've got till it's gone? I almost lost my colon. I've got it. How do I look after her? I started like treating her like that. Yeah. What do I need to do to protect her, to keep her?
Anneli Marinovich (07:24)
Wow.
I look after my colon. What a babe.
I love that.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (07:39)
And I knew the doctors was only part of the story. was really grateful, really grateful for the medical system for doing all of that emergency care. But I knew that I needed to turn in, I needed to tune in. And what was extraordinary is through being so seriously ill in the weeks that followed, I could just pick up food and go, no, yes. I would like literally feel I need this, I need this. And I started to explore.
Anneli Marinovich (07:44)
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (08:08)
For example, pineapple contains this amazing something called bromelain, is like anti-inflammatory. And it was like, β I feel like I need some pineapple.
Anneli Marinovich (08:15)
Wow, okay.
You were craving,
so your gut was saying to you, need pineapple. Were you, I have a quick question, were you before this, were you very, how can I put this, were you mindful about food and were you sort of like, you know, you sort of, sometimes you come across women who are really led by their guts and really sort of like, know, were you like that before this happened? Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (08:23)
Yes.
No, would actually
go a little bit further back. I was a very beige eating teenage vegetarian who never actually ate any vegetables at all, really.
Anneli Marinovich (08:52)
What a combo. Wow. Okay, vegetarian, veg, no vegetables.
So you were the opposite. Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (08:58)
I was the opposite and I thought healthy
food was not like not eating too many chips. Like I just didn't, it's like being kind of toast and like very limited. Remember I was at university in London on a budget. I wasn't eating well. I wasn't informed about my health in that way. So I went completely the opposite and started to really get curious about food and started working with nutritionists and lots of different practitioners. And then through that, I realised, well, actually,
Anneli Marinovich (09:03)
Yeah.
Fair enough. Yeah.
Yeah, of course, yeah.
Wow.
Mm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (09:26)
my body actually can guide me. My body really knows. And so the pineapple was one of the first things, but then it started to kind of keep developing avocado, walnuts, this. And my body was just saying all the time. And I've got to say that there was an intensity of that, almost like knowledge. And then it kind of, and I think as I started to heal, it quietened a little bit.
Anneli Marinovich (09:29)
Well, it knows.
my goodness.
Mm.
They
quietened down so your body was speaking to you, telling you what it needed. Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (09:52)
Yeah, but I still feel
now in my work, a lot of the work I do is helping people to tune in because I think we get told so much by experts, like generalists mice, particularly as women, because traditionally a lot of studies can be often studies that historically have been more male-focused, far more male people involved in studies. Now more and more there's an awareness, particularly with the gut microbiome, that we need women in studies.
Anneli Marinovich (09:56)
Hmm. Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (10:21)
women at different points in their cycle in our studies, in the land, and also
Anneli Marinovich (10:23)
That's it. Mm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (10:25)
women at different points in perimenopause and menopause. So I'm loving that we're at a point where there's a more awareness. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (10:28)
Mm.
There's more awareness and there's more conversations
happening around this. And I find the whole field fascinating. I bought a couple of books last year. don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Mindy Pals. not so much. So obviously she's a massive fan of fasting and I think there's a time and place for fasting. But one of the key things that I found through her book called Eat Like a Girl was just looking at what types of foods your body craze during different parts of your cycle.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (10:43)
Yes. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (11:00)
and not to exclude things. know, women can be very fatalistic when it comes to food, especially when you're working with women who want to lose weight or they want to change their bodies. The first thing they do is A, starve themselves and B, cut out things like carbohydrates, which, you know, your body needs different elements. Your body needs the nutrients and it's being a bit more intuitive and listening to your body in terms of what it needs. So I'm glad we're talking about this. And I do think there's a lot more knowledge now available in terms of
what it looks like for you as you get older. But at the same time, there's still a lot of overwhelm and it's still a lot of confusing information out there, which is one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today. Because the women, particularly women over 40, we just have so much on our minds. We need things to be simple and we need things to return to, you know, its roots almost, which is, is, you know, fitting with what we're talking about. It needs to be good.
whole food that really nurtures your body. Nothing, doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to be crazy, just good wholesome food.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (12:06)
Yeah, I really agree with you. And I think there is a lot of noise out there that can create confusion. And I also think if you look at what's happening, we often focus on a particular trend and that trend suddenly becomes very like, like everyone's talking about it and there's a lot of marketing and then that trend kind of dies away. I think, yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (12:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, then the next trend comes. Carnivore diet,
keto diet.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (12:33)
Yeah, and actually,
thing is to be a little bit confident that although we can offer some really good general advice, I'm always really aware that people are individuals. going back to the gut microbiome, what we know is there are significant differences between the gut microbiome between men and women. So women have β some specific tendency towards specific species like acumancia, which is a really beautiful, helpful species that lives in the lining of the gut.
Anneli Marinovich (12:41)
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (13:02)
also lactopacillus, so again a really, really wonderful species, but what we know is when we go into our perimenopause and menopause that we start to see some patterns of shift and we lose some of that diversity over time.
Anneli Marinovich (13:17)
And we're talking, when you say species, we're talking about gut bacteria, right? Just to clarify, okay, we're talking about gut bacteria, the good gut bacteria. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (13:20)
Yes, we are. Just give it a try. Yeah.
And so what we're looking for always is to have, you know, a healthy gut microbiome has a lot of different range of different species of bacteria and also a lovely balance between what we'd call beneficial. The ones that we know have health benefits, anti-inflammatory, are supporting our hormonal levels and other species of bacteria which are a little bit less helpful. That might be pro-inflammatory.
Anneli Marinovich (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (13:51)
But I guess the point I'm making is also each one of our micro-brances is unique to us. β
Anneli Marinovich (13:57)
Right. Every single person
has a unique microbiome. So what is good for me might not be good for you.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (14:04)
Yes, yes.
So we're kind of always talking, I guess, in generally, like advice, but also knowing because we're unique that we also need to, but how does it, how does this, if I'm choosing a certain way of eating, how does it make me feel? Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (14:10)
Yeah.
How does it make you feel exactly? So
would you agree that there's a certain amount of experimentation when it comes to figuring out what is good for your gut or what works for you? Because very often, you know, I like to eat a lot of fermented foods. So that's great. So the sauerkraut, you know, those types of things. But then I will speak to another woman who said to me, I can't eat sauerkraut. It wreaks havoc with my gut. And that's just, it is experimentation, but it's also looking at actually being in tune with your body in terms of
knowing how certain foods make you feel or how it makes you react because very often women just suppress. We eat the foods that we think we should be eating but we don't pay attention to what actually happens whether it makes you bloated or gassy or things like that we need to actually tune into that don't we.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (15:06)
Yeah and I love that you brought up fermented food because we know there's overall huge health benefits to eating fermented food regularly and that's pretty clear but you're absolutely right some people will really struggle to tolerate them and it will create bloating and discomfort. I would often talk about if people are starting to introduce some changes to their diet it's to start really small and you know you can have a tiny half a teaspoon.
Anneli Marinovich (15:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Little teaspoon, that's it. Little teaspoon,
not like half a jar. That's, Slowly introducing it, yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (15:37)
Yeah, exactly.
Or a little bit of kaffir or a little bit of natural yoghurt or bit of miso. Just like trying a little bit of it for me. And then just slowly, slowly introducing because also we know that our gut microbiomes, our gut bacteria can respond and be like, oh, that's interesting. That's something new. And imagining if you're introducing, if you go back to our gut garden metaphor, a new plant species.
Anneli Marinovich (15:42)
Yeah.
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm.
Mm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (16:04)
We might just want to kind of like just put a couple of little seeds in and see how they respond in that soy room. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (16:07)
Right plant a little seed yeah. So how
long does that take for your gut so if you introduce something new to your gut how long would it take for the bacteria to respond and go yay or nay?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (16:18)
It can be really quick. we know the gut microbiome can start to change literally within 24 hours. It can start to very subtly shift. It's really responsive. But in terms of people's response to introducing a new food like ferments, it can take quite a bit of time. In my experience, it can take small amounts building up, maybe getting used to, β adjusting to having that increase in the probiotic food, the fermented food. Also with fiber, because fiber is a
Anneli Marinovich (16:20)
Okay.
Wow.
Mm. Mm.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (16:47)
we know it really has huge health benefits and most of us here in the UK where we're recording this, most of us in the UK aren't having sufficient fibre.
Anneli Marinovich (16:57)
Yeah, that is something that I found when I when I generally speaking 25 grams a day, you know, but when I when I start speaking to women and analyzing what they're eating and just trying to guide them with what they should focus on. One of the big things is fiber. And when they realize when they actually start looking at what they're eating, they realize how little fiber they're actually getting. So it's something you actually have to pay attention to.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (17:21)
Yeah, there is definitely being intentional, but maybe to circle back the reason that is so important for women in this period of time we're talking about as we're going into perimenopause and menopause is we know β that generally one of the key differences between men and women's digestive systems is women have a transit time than men, significantly slower. So from input to output, from eating to pooping, you're quite
Anneli Marinovich (17:24)
Mmm. Mmm.
Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (17:49)
like longer time for women.
Anneli Marinovich (17:51)
Why do we do we know why that is?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (17:53)
Well, there's a few reasons. One of them is that women have a slightly longer and slightly curvier colon than men. But curvier on the inside as well as the outside. And the reason for that is if you think about our abdominal area, we have
Anneli Marinovich (18:02)
Okay, she's a curvy girl. We like a curvy girl, great. Curvy, they? Fantastic.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (18:17)
additional organs in there that men don't have. We have a uterus, we have the womb, so we have slightly more curves and kinks. And if you imagine the digestive system is a very beautiful long tube, effectively, it's about seven and a half meters long in the average human. So imagine that you're moving food along the tube and that tube is also curved and, you know, within the abdominal cavity.
Anneli Marinovich (18:20)
Right. Of course.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wow. Yeah.
Mm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (18:45)
So women have, and we have slightly longer, slightly curvier is significant. And then you add in our hormone cycle and we know during our hormones, we have a tendency when β progesterone levels are higher for it to slow down motility. And then estrogen has a tendency to speed up, which is why sometimes we experience maybe tendency towards constipation a week or so before our period. And then maybe around our period, more likely to have loose bowel movements.
Anneli Marinovich (18:52)
Mm-hmm.
huh. huh.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (19:13)
And this
Anneli Marinovich (19:14)
huh.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (19:14)
is because our hormones are having this big impact on the whole of our digestive system.
Anneli Marinovich (19:19)
That's incredible. Isn't like, that to me, our bodies, women's bodies are just incredible and how it all just, you know, it's so sensitive and it's so beautifully tuned. it's, I feel like the more I understand about myself and about this journey, particularly in perimenopause, you know, the more empowered I feel to make better decisions for my body. So, but you have to really lean into being in touch with your gut.
or your body and how you're responding and how it, what it looks like during different times of the month. Because it is like, you know, it's, ebbs and flows, doesn't it? So you just need to go, well, not to be cheesy, but go with the flow of your body, you know? Yes.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (20:00)
Yeah, and support that flow. I think
we've been talking, we touched on perimenopause and what's happening in a perimenopause is as our Eastern levels are dropping, we have often slower transit times, that slower movement through the gut. And sometimes when people talk about menopause, we also talk about the gut pause. So we're having this slowing down of that transition. so to counteract that, to stop
Anneli Marinovich (20:18)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (20:29)
that kind of tendency towards constipation, it's really important as women for us to be very intentional about our fibre intake and our hydration levels. And we really need to be more aware of that. And I think that's something to be kind of doing early on in that process. So it's already in my body to have that lovely movement through our system.
Anneli Marinovich (20:37)
Yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
So because we know this is going, this is happening for us during this phase. So hydration, fibre, making sure you're getting at least 25 grams. What was the 13 that you mentioned? Movement. so yeah, so the kind of, you know, I always say, you know, go for a little walk after lunch or dinner, or if you can just kind of like keep your body active. Is there a particular, are we just talking a walk? Is it just kind of being active or what would you suggest?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (21:00)
So it's about movement, because, yeah.
I think the key thing is if you think about the kind of gravitational pull of the body, just the process of moving, it could be a gentle walk. And I really agree with you. I think there's something about after eating, allowing our body to digest, like a good 30, 40 minutes, but then maybe after that, going for a walk, which has a couple of benefits. One, it's just helping what we call the palerostalic wave, which is a movement of food through the gut, supporting that gravitational pull.
Anneli Marinovich (21:23)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (21:49)
pushed down. And also you're helping, as you know, it's like flattened blood sugar because we could potentially after eating, we just want to like allow just letting everything move for the system, but allowing the blood sugar to flatten. So there's a couple of reasons why there's a particular health benefits to a walk post meal. But I actually think there's so many different forms of movement and it's just like whatever movement is right for you, help your body to help to be active and support that natural flow.
Anneli Marinovich (21:54)
Yes.
Mm.
Mm.
Definitely.
Yeah. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (22:17)
of movement of food through the system.
Anneli Marinovich (22:20)
I actually quite like that we've mentioned this because in general, I try and encourage women to just to move more in general. You know, the non-exercise activity thermogenesis, the neat movement throughout the day is what really makes the difference. You know, what you do in the gym is great, but then how much are you moving the rest of the day? Because a lot of us have very sedentary lifestyles. And a lot of the time you do, especially in perimenopause, experience more...
gut issues because you are pretty much moving once a day if you go to the gym or maybe you do one walk and the rest of day you're just sitting. We are not built for sitting, you know, we do better when we move. That's what we were designed to do. And one of the things we always talk about is a movement snack in the afternoon, you know, having a healthy snack instead of, your usual biscuits at 4pm when the sugar crashes, having a healthy snack with protein and healthy fats, those kinds of things, but then also moving. So combining those two things. I'm glad we've touched on that.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (23:17)
Yeah, and I love that, that's that, when that sometimes that natural energy drop off later in the afternoon, right, there's, it's sometimes a bit of fresh air, a bit of movement. Suddenly you feel more awake, feel more energized. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (23:24)
Mm.
Yes. Yeah. Bit of air. Bit of oxygen. Yes.
I love this. So just to segue, just literally back to what we were talking about before. Obviously, we know that there's a lot of, we know the tie between gut bacteria and how that helps regulate estrogen. So obviously, one of the big things you talk about is inflammation.
And I know in perimenopause and in this stage of our lives, there is a lot of inflammation. And can we chat a little bit about inflammation and cortisol and the fact that I feel like a lot of women in our phase of life are very, very stressed out. We have a lot on our plates, we're dealing with a lot and how taking care of your gut links in with that and managing inflammation because all those, but inflammation and cortisol pretty much go together, don't they?
So could you touch a little bit on that and what you would suggest in terms of how you take care of your gut to help with that managing the cortisol or elevated cortisol levels anyway because we all have cortisol don't we but it's the elevated perpetual elevated levels that becomes a problem.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (24:34)
Yes, I think one of the ways of understanding what's happening inside of ourselves when we're in a stress mode, when we have elevated levels of stress in our body, is if you think about when you get a dry mouth, say you stand up to make a speech or you're anxious about something, you literally like, I need to drink some water, my mouth has gone dry. And that's a kind of a response of the body, the dry mouth. But if you imagine that dryness,
extending along the digestive tract when we are stressed and we have elevated cortisol actually can dry out the digestive system. We're not producing the same levels of mucus. Yes, it's really interesting. So if you imagine that drying and that sense of almost becoming, if that's happening regularly, we're becoming kind of inflamed, swollen. so, it really helps. It helps me to, I think it's interesting, it helps explain.
Anneli Marinovich (25:23)
My goodness, that's a very powerful visual. Geez, yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (25:31)
and helps people to understand and visualize. So, β and I think what you said is right. We were often in a very messy middle of our lives while experiencing changes in our hormones. yeah, often we've got maybe generational care, like either side of us. Often, β you know, we might be at the peak of our working lives today as women, often in our 40s and early 50s.
Anneli Marinovich (25:33)
Mm. Mm.
Yes, it's everything.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (25:58)
really peeking in the busyness and responsibility and yet also experiencing significant hormonal changes in our bodies. So we're navigating a lot. β And in terms of managing stress, β mean, a lot of my work is around mindfulness and self-compassion.
Anneli Marinovich (26:01)
Mm. Mm.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (26:21)
And one of the things that I love to talk about and share is that the surprising to people is that when we are kinder to ourselves, when we're passionate to ourselves, it actually has an anti-inflammatory effect in the body. And you think about that, it might be surprising, but if you imagine like the inner voice that we all have, we all speak, we all have an inner dialogue with ourselves. And if that inner dialogue, that inner voice that we have is negative or
Anneli Marinovich (26:29)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. It's crazy.
Mmm. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (26:48)
critical or God, look what you've done now. you know, imagine that if you had a friend in your life who was being critical or negative to you. And yeah, and you can imagine that it'd be quite stressful having that. But we're not always aware of it if it's a pattern that we have adopted unconsciously. So
Anneli Marinovich (26:51)
Yeah, yeah.
You would cut that friend off.
Yeah, it's so true.
Yes!
Yeah.
Mm.
Yes.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (27:17)
By shifting that inner dialogue to becoming caring, kind, more supportive, we immediately are reducing the cortisol. We're immediately creating a calmer atmosphere in our body. So I'm a big advocate of really simple ways of starting to become more aware of the inner dialogue and create moments in your day of just kind of being kinder and calmer.
Anneli Marinovich (27:30)
Mm-hmm.
So powerful. Yeah.
I absolutely love all of what you've just said. And I do think it is a shame as women that we don't apply, know, self-compassion is almost like a foreign concept to us, even though we are nurturers at heart, we take care of everyone, but we struggle to apply those rules to ourselves. And it is such a powerful mindset shift because at the end of the day, if you can't, if you're not taking care of yourself, you cannot show up in the way that you really want to for your family, your friends and...
for your health, so it all links together. I think one of the key things that I find is that women tend to try and squeeze in a little bit of mindfulness here, they're like, they don't schedule it. And I know with myself, if I am intentional, and I'm usually pretty good, but not every day goes according to plan, but I try and carve out some time in the morning to spend some time just.
working on my mindset and quieting my mind and finding that inner calm a little bit because then I can tolerate whatever comes the rest of the day and whatever the day brings I feel more equipped to handle it. β But it doesn't always have to be that way and one of the things we always joke about in the group coaching program that I have you know maybe your mindfulness is nine o'clock at night when the kids have gone to bed whatever it is you have to fit it into your life to make it work for you but the point is being intentional.
Because if you don't have the intention of doing that, your life will run away with you. Much like anything in this era of our lives, you have to be intentional with your workouts, with your hydration, your fibre and your mind. And I feel like the mindset side of things sometimes gets left out of the equation because women want to know what workout should I do to get abs in five days? And, you know, β
basically what should I eat? Should I never eat carbs again? They don't think about the mindset. And actually I think that's the bit that's most important, isn't it?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (29:43)
Yeah, and I think I love what you've just said. I think that part about being intentional is so key and almost once that foundational piece is in place, because we're being kinder, we're more mindful of those decisions, then I think the behaviors follow. It becomes easier because we're coming from a place of caring for ourselves. So the decisions we make around our movement and our food intake are aligned with that because, well, I'm
Anneli Marinovich (29:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm. Yeah.
Yes.
Hmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (30:12)
caring for myself, what would I do for a good friend? I would want them to eat the best food, to be healthy and well. I'd want them to do things ways that make them feel good. So if we're coming from intentionally kind of cultivating that relationship of care, and I think also the point that you made really powerfully about the beginning of the day and the end of the day, they're really two powerful places of often where we can detach from our phones and social media and the noise and we can have before we
Anneli Marinovich (30:13)
That's it. For a friend.
Yeah. β
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (30:41)
plug into the internet or plug into all the busy responsibilities. There's often a moment in the morning, some moments in the morning, it doesn't have to be long, can be five minutes of just being peaceful.
Anneli Marinovich (30:44)
Exactly. Yeah. Quiet. Yes. Yeah.
Just quiet bits. it's, I have this, I've got this little, not obsession, but I like to frame everything within a picture of how does this serve the 80 year old version of me? The way that I show up, everything I do every day, I'm like, does this serve her? Is this going to help her? Is this going to harm her? What decisions am I making? And it is being kind to yourself. I'm being kind to me.
At 43, I'm trying anyway. I'm trying to be kind to me because I'm trying to be kind or I am being kind to the 80 year old version of me. And I spoke at an event on Friday last week for International Women's Day and one of the ladies came up to me afterwards and said to me, I've never thought about this. I've never thought about it like that. Because we do think about, oh, that's a problem for another day. We don't think about the future so much or the future version of us, but...
decisions we make now and the decision to be kind to yourself is exactly that. It's something that you're doing for your future self and it's not something you, you know, I think we need to prioritise that now more than ever at the age that we're at because, you know, you're the only one that that is going to take care of yourself and your body and your mind and I think that's it's an immense responsibility but it's also incredible.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (32:06)
Yes, and I think this piece of women in particular needing to be mindful of this is because there's a lot of cultural pressures for us to put other people's needs ahead of our own. β There's a lot of like, kind of learning around that. So actually focusing our care towards ourselves, just because we want to be healthy, happy 80 year olds. mean, that's amazing. That's little thing. Like, you know, that's what we want. We all want to be. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (32:07)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah
Yeah, that is what we want. We want to carry
our own shopping. We want to be the one running around, not worrying about, you know, being, yeah. Either way, it is a wonderful goal to kind of have in the back of your head. one of the ladies, think she's in her early 20s, and she said to me, my goodness, it's reframed everything. And I was like, great, you've got all the time, go for it. those, put those building blocks in place now, it's great.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (32:54)
You
Anneli Marinovich (32:59)
Also, we chat a little bit about, I know I mentioned it initially, but I want to just chat a little bit about the vagus nerve, the super highway. You often talk about a 10-lane highway between the gut and the brain. And how does, can we talk about how this connection dictates sort of brain fog or midlife anxiety?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (33:18)
Yeah, so the vagus nerve is this beautiful long wandering nerve. So it comes from the root, vagus comes from the Latin root, which means that from the root of vagabond or vagrant. So it's to wonder. And it's this incredible cranial nerve, the longest cranial nerve in the body. And it starts up in the cortex, goes down the sides of our neck, threads through most of the organs in our body. And I think it roots down into our gut. And what we now know is that our
Anneli Marinovich (33:30)
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (33:47)
gorgeous, extraordinary gut bacteria can use the vagus nerve to signal between our gut and our brain. This is what we're understanding about this communication. And β what we understand is we assume in our culture that obviously our head leads everything and the head is the king and queen of our life. But actually, it turns out the vagus nerve and our gut are really important because most of the communication between our gut and our brain is from the gut to the brain.
Anneli Marinovich (33:56)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah
Mmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (34:17)
So imagine a 10-lane superhighway, four lanes are going from the brain to the gut and six are going from the gut to the brain. And again, we talk about gut instincts and gut feelings. We know this and we often know that those moments in our life where, I had a real gut feeling about this. They're usually very wise parts of us. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (34:29)
Yes. Yeah.
Hmm β
10 lanes, mean six lanes, six more
than the brain. I mean that's incredible. So when you have a craving, that's your gut sending a message to your brain.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (34:52)
Yes, yes, that's what's happening.
Anneli Marinovich (34:54)
And
I've heard this before where the idea is to feed the healthy gut bacteria so they send more messages to your brain saying, ooh, more of good stuff, and to try and starve off the bad bacteria so you get less cravings for the sugary, the processed foods and things. Is that true?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (35:12)
Yeah, I mean, I'm always a bit cautious about the language we use because we're still discovering what some of these species of bacteria do, but we know that there are some species of bacteria which can be quite harmful. There's a few species that are quite harmful to human health and some are really less helpful. it's a bit like if we go back to our gut garden, we want the really beautiful, healthy species that are going to attract the birds and the bees and the butterflies. We want all that. That's going to be crazy.
Anneli Marinovich (35:17)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Okay. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (35:42)
In particular, we know that our gut bacteria produce things like dopamine and serotonin, beautiful feel-good hormones, and we want them to be doing that. We want them to be creating these incredible neurotransmitters. So we want the species that are health benefiting for us and help us to feel well.
Anneli Marinovich (35:47)
Mmm. Yes.
Yeah.
And that is actually a great point because one of the big things that we experience in perimenopause is mood swings, low mood. And if you're feeding your gut and you're taking care of these wonderful gut bacteria species that make us feel good, you will experience probably enhanced mood. You will feel a bit better than yourself. So that can also help with mood swings and those kinds of things.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (36:25)
Yeah, I think this is a natural part of our experience, isn't it, with our hormone cycles that we're always in flow, we're always in response to these really important parts of our biology. And interestingly, β there have been some studies which have shown that in countries where people naturally eat a lot of fermented foods, for example, in Japan β and South Korea, where they eat lots of fermented food products like miso and kimchi.
Anneli Marinovich (36:29)
Mm-hmm.
Bye.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (36:56)
there is less of a tendency for women to experience hot flushes and those kinds of things. So again, there seems to be this relationship between the health and diversity of our beautiful gut garden, our gut microbiome, and having these health beneficial bacteria species that supports us as we navigate through our perimenopause and menopause.
Anneli Marinovich (37:01)
That is incredible. Love that.
Mm.
I love
that. And also it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be difficult because one of the things that comes up regularly is, but how do I incorporate all these different things into my diet? And it's the thing that I'm a big fan of is I do most of the time, almost every day, if I'm at home and I'm not traveling, I will normally have a rainbow protein bowl for lunch, which essentially is, you know, the base is sort of like whole food, whole grain carbs, and then there's a fair whack of protein in there.
But then I just throw loads of different things in there and make it as colourful as possible. And it fascinates me that when I speak to women about this, it is almost a concept of, I didn't know you could do that. I didn't know you could throw all these things in. But the idea, I quite like experimenting and I quite like colourful foods, but all of these β types of foods are readily available to us, know, kimchi.
It's not, we're not saying, you know, these are things we've never heard of before. It is just opening your mind to actually, I need to incorporate this into my diet because it has these benefits.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (38:23)
Yes, I really agree with you and I love the experimentation. I think there's something about literally following your gut and going, I've got that and I quite fancy a little bit of that. And I'm real kind of like experimenter in the kitchen. Like whatever's like, you know, I want to get this out. I'm just using things up. And if I find a bit of cabbage in the bottom of a salad drawer, I will take it out and I will ferment it. I'll make my own crab. Yeah, yeah, it's great.
Anneli Marinovich (38:27)
Mmm.
Hmm. Yeah. I can make it all together.
That's it. Nothing most to waste. That's
fabulous. I love that. I now have a dry mouth. So, things to be talked about. Cheers to hydration. Oh, that's great. So one of the big things in Mind & Muscle Beyond 40 is compassion. I'm a big, big fan of that. And I had a podcast chat recently with another wonderful guest and we were talking about
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (38:57)
I will join you. Let's hydrate.
Anneli Marinovich (39:17)
consistency over perfection and how important that is because women tend to be all or nothing type mindsets. you know, doing one thing each day that serves you and that actually feeds in quite nicely to our conversation. know, every day won't be perfect, but it's trying to nurture your gut and make a good decision for your gut at least once a day. So, you know, and seeing it as a journey and seeing it as experimentation, but your secret sauce with everything you do with mindful gut is literally self-compassion and I love that.
And it is the fact that I remember when you said the words, gut garden, I just thought that is so compassionate. That is so like my gut garden. It's just, it's beautiful. β But yeah, so you, I mean, you do focus quite a lot on mindset and one of your, β one of the things that I wanted to talk to you with you about today is mindful eating versus strict eating. And I will say this, I teach women how to keep track of what they eat.
because I feel a lot of the time we don't understand firstly, how much fuel our body needs, because we're all individual, we're all unique. Like I'm five foot 11, I'm very different to, you know, I have a very unique lifestyle. To me and my body needs X amount of energy to serve me for my workouts, et cetera, but we're all unique. So it's educating women about how much energy they need and then what types of foods will serve them better. But in terms of intuitive eating and gut compassion,
We know that this is better for us in the long run and anything too restrictive creates these boundaries and again sets us up for failure. How would you suggest that women approach, know, straddling that line of intuitive eating, but also trying to be mindful of, you know, the foods they eat and just energizing their bodies. But what I'm trying to say, I guess, is trying to give women a guideline of how they can approach this while still
making progress, if that makes sense.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (41:16)
Well, firstly, I think it's really helpful for periods of time to track what you're eating, because then I think you can actually start to see patterns. And I've sat in a lot with people where specific things have become real triggers. And it was really obvious that, you know, it can also be alcohol. think often sometimes things we're So alcohol can sometimes be a real trigger for hot flushes, for example. actually, people say, oh, I never get a hot flush until I drink. And I've noticed.
Anneli Marinovich (41:25)
Mmm. Yes.
Yes. β
Yeah.
Yes.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (41:46)
because I saw the pattern.
Anneli Marinovich (41:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (41:49)
And so I think there's something really sensible about a period of time of just observing and recording. So you actually become a little bit of a detective about, pre-detective, like, well, that's the thing that I'm, and also that's the thing when I have it, I actually feel really energized and sated and I feel really good. So just noticing, and I think doing that for periods of time can be super helpful because then you become your own expert.
Anneli Marinovich (41:57)
Yes. That's it. Yes.
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm.
Yes
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (42:15)
Because you see,
oh, that led to that. I also just want to say, though, because we often focus on what we're eating and the part about the mindful eating mores into the how we're eating. You can eat the same thing on two different days or in two different ways and experience a very different outcome. And one can be, well, I was on the go, I was rushing, I raced, I just knew I had to eat quickly because and then actually what we're doing is we're working against.
Anneli Marinovich (42:19)
Yeah.
Yes.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (42:44)
all of the signals our body needs to slow down and impaired digestion. So sometimes by just slowing down and creating the right environment to eat. And I love when you were talking about your beautiful coloured bowl of all the goodness that you're kind of throwing in and experimenting with, because you're making something really beautiful and visually appealing. And that's a gift. That's an act of self-compassion. That's a gift, isn't it?
Anneli Marinovich (42:52)
Eugh. Eugh.
Mm.
My entire
camera roll is filled with photos of Rainbows. That was too beautiful not to photograph. But it is, you're right, you're right. I am creating and I am a creative as well. So somewhere that also β satisfies that sort of like creativity, you know, Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (43:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, and
I love that. So the creativity and the beauty and the gift of decorating food that actually is good for you. And OK, we sometimes three times a day that might be a bit challenging and we need to plan ahead and we need to keep things simple and everything. β But by slowing down what we're doing and by making something beautiful is all by sitting at a table. I sometimes encourage people in the evening just to light a candle to do something really simple, not just.
Anneli Marinovich (43:31)
Mm. Mm.
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm. That's it. Yeah.
Mm.
Yes.
that. Yeah.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (43:56)
So many of us eating in front of TV or over a laptop or...
Anneli Marinovich (43:59)
We're
distracted while we eat.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (44:02)
Slowing down and then looking at our food, β being grateful for our food,
like just a moment of grace or gratitude. All of that will start to, will actually start to get the salivary glands going and then breathing for a little bit, like taking some breaths and becoming a bit more mindful. Actually, you'll notice again, your body is preparing, your digestive tract is starting to say, okay, something, I'm preparing my body to eat.
And that triggers something called amylase, which is a really important part of an early part of a digestive process when we're eating it. It's in saliva and this amylase actually breaks down carbohydrates. And I also say our stomach doesn't have teeth, so we have to chew here. That initial is a really important part of digestion. So there's two things happening in the mouth just straight away. And then obviously things go down to the stomach. And you just think about this beautiful complex
Anneli Marinovich (44:44)
Fantastic.
Mm. Yes.
Mm.
Mmm.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (45:00)
orchestration
of the way our body is responding to our environment before we even eat and the visual cues and the smells of cooking or of the food that we're eating, all of those things. And all of that is setting your body up to succeed, setting your body up to be able to take the absolute best nutrients from this beautiful food that you're gifting yourself.
Anneli Marinovich (45:07)
incredible.
I mean, that is just beautiful. You know, the food that you're gifting yourself, that is incredible. And it very often, I think we are also, we're in such a rush culture. Let me quickly wolf down my lunch at my desk. You know, and I try actively not to do that. β But it's almost, it almost turns into a bit of a ceremony for the food that you're about to eat. I love that. So this, and this is your, does this feed into your five minute gut check?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (45:52)
Yeah, so this is, β you can do a short or a long version of this depending on the day that you're in, but I always invite people to really pause before eating, to become a bit of a routine, a bit of a ritual. So you talk about the ceremony of food. Sometimes those ceremonies are really obvious if it's like, you know, someone's birthday or Christmas.
Anneli Marinovich (45:58)
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Yes.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (46:19)
We're
gathering the rituals of food, the lighting, the setting of the table, the preparations. But it's like doing a smaller, simpler version of that for our regular day-to-day eating where we just slow down.
β And I'm really happy to kind of like give an idea of how I would do this in practice if you'd like me to explain. So we start off by actually just putting our feet flat on the ground where we're sitting. So just kind of really just adjusting our body so that we've really got like a sense of stability in the body and the feet on the ground can really help. And then just noticing you just maybe reorientating in your chair so your spine is straight. You know, it's amazing how we can be kind of slouched.
Anneli Marinovich (46:37)
I would love that, yes.
Punched
over, yes.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (47:00)
Yeah,
and what we're doing by that is we're just allowing, if you feel the front, you can feel space in the chest so that you're breathing, you're kind of allowing breath, but also in that beautiful abdominal area where our gut resides, that we have space, there's a sense of openness. So shoulders just kind of relaxed but open. And I'm going to invite you to place one palm on your chest and one onto your belly if that feels comfortable, just like in a really comforting way. And we're to do that just to notice the breath.
So I'm going to like lower my gaze. I just invite you to either lower your gaze or close your eyes, whatever's comfortable. If you're watching or listening to this. And then taking a deep breath into the lower part.
letting it out.
It'd be quite nice to sigh out with Leah, that feels natural. Another lovely deep breath in.
letting it out.
And as we do the third breath in.
Looking a little bit deeper into that lower palm and letting that out. You might just notice your shoulders dropping a little bit, maybe noticing any holding.
And I just invite you to find that natural rhythm of your own breath.
each time you breathe in taking that breath a little bit deeper into the abdominal area into that lower palm.
I'm really finding a natural flow of your breath.
in and out.
keeping the body very relaxed.
And as we breathe in again.
Just really bringing your attention into the lower part of your, where your lower hand is, into your belly. Noticing your breath there.
and just connecting to the sense that beneath your hand is this incredibly wise, precious inner ecosystem. Your garden, it's unique to you.
And just starting to visualise if you can or imagine all the species of beautiful bacteria.
quietly working away, helping to digest your food.
process your emotions.
support your whole manhound.
these amazing chemicals that help you to feel good.
Just taking a really deep breath in again is that beautiful lower.
and I invite you to smile to your belly.
smile to your breath.
and just have this really loving curiosity about how can you care for them? How can you better care for these gorgeous bacteria?
these precious gut bugs in your wonderful gut garden.
Breathing in.
with curiosity and love.
allowing any pictures or images or words to come to you.
And then taking another lovely deep final breath in.
letting that out.
and slowly opening eyes and coming back into the space together.
letting your hands relax.
Anneli Marinovich (51:25)
just had this beautiful vision of butterflies in my gut. β
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (51:32)
I love that, I love that. Floating around happily.
Anneli Marinovich (51:36)
β
it's so beautiful. That was so, so powerful and just, yeah, thank you for that. That was beautiful.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (51:47)
So there's an opportunity just to get curious and start to build that relationship with a beautiful inner ecosystem. And I would encourage like a really micro way of doing that is to take three breaths before you eat. for come just preparing your body, looking at your food before eating these really helping you to set your system up, your whole digestive system up, prepare those lovely gut bags for what's coming as well.
Anneli Marinovich (51:59)
Mm-hmm.
That's
That's fantastic. I love that. Well, that was incredible. I did want to just touch on before we wrap up, I wanted to touch on your focus that you've talked about before about eating 30 plants a week. That is a lot. 30 different plants, I'm going to Keith, not just... β We need diversity.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (52:33)
Really important, that's really important. Yeah, it's not just 30 portions of broccoli. Yeah, diversity.
So there's really clear evidence that once we hit over 30, there's like big longitudinal, large scale studies that show like the huge health benefits of that diversity. But the wonderful thing about that diversity is if we break down what does that mean 30 different plants?
including things like spices and herbs. So straight away a sprinkle of some fresh herbs, little jar of spices on the side, know, putting in some cinnamon to your morning oats, sprinkling in. Yeah, all of these things can be so easy just to elevate towards that 30. And we are looking for that diversity. So we're talking about the rainbow plate. All these different plants will have slightly different phytonutrients, slightly different benefits for our body. So
Anneli Marinovich (53:14)
Love that.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (53:31)
when we have that diversity, we're supporting different species of bacteria that like particular nutrients and we're therefore helping them to be flourish and to be healthy, like all those different gut bugs that we want to thrive. So 30 is the magic number. I also talk about seeds and nuts, lovely ways of sprinkling a bit of fibre, bit of extra protein, lovely to have. We can look at different grains.
as well as our vegetables and our fruits. It's just thinking about
Anneli Marinovich (54:01)
So there's
actually quite, mean, when you say it like that, it makes it seem much more achievable. Yeah. You just have to think outside of the box. Yeah. And not get stuck in a rut of eating the same thing every day, because I do think that people just get so conditioned to thinking, well, I know this works, I'm just going to eat this every day. That's the opposite of what you should be doing.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (54:07)
Yes, yes it really is,
Yeah, quite literally. Yeah, literally.
Well, and I think sometimes you find a breakfast that you love that really works for you. Go for it. But then look at how can you sprinkle something different on top, maybe add some slightly different seeds, maybe some pumpkin, flaxseed, just thinking about that diversity. then again, so it's like it can be tweaks as well as wholesale changes. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (54:29)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
tweak it, that's it.
That makes it a lot easier as well, I love that. And also I always teach women to have a list of things that you know work well for you and then you can just play around with those things, which again is why the rainbow bowls work so well because I meal prep things over the weekend and then I just, you know, throw in a few new things or, but the base of it is always similar so it just makes it a no-brainer.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (55:07)
Yeah. And I think that's important in a world where sometimes we're talking about women being so busy, keeping it simple can really help us. So getting into routines that we know work well, but then having that little bit of seasonal flexibility can be great. So we're eating fresh and we're eating local as well. sourcing, yeah. Or growing, I don't know, I grow berries and raspberries in my garden. It's lovely. Spring and summer going out and picking a few actual berries and like...
Anneli Marinovich (55:13)
Mm.
Yes.
Mmm.
Yes.
fantastic.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (55:34)
I don't do much to look after them. I make sure they get watered if it's a dry spell, but it's a lovely moment, yeah, of having that extra bit of fresh food.
Anneli Marinovich (55:38)
Amazing.
I am last summer, so I live in West Sussex and last summer we have a lot of blackberries that grow wild all over. I'm not joking when I say that I think I foraged 20 bags last year and I stuck them all in the freezer and just kind of like, it's, I love nothing more than to make like a berry smoothie or even berry and banana ice cream at night. That's my favorite. So having those kinds of things to hand is so incredible. And again, it just great fiber. It's great.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (56:11)
Yeah, and there's something so beautiful about like that kind of tuning into that seasonality and connecting with the animals. And I bet that you enjoyed foraging them and that you're all the health benefits of being out there and getting in nature and then you're...
Anneli Marinovich (56:12)
Yeah.
Yes.
Loved it so much. Got all my friends involved as well.
became a thing. Bring a big bag. It's so good. my goodness. I have enjoyed our chat so much, Kara. Thank you so much for coming on. I feel like you are an absolute, you know, fountain of knowledge. I mean, I could spend hours chatting with you. Thank you for taking the time and I hope.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (56:28)
that was fun. Yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (56:44)
that this conversation, if you're listening to this on YouTube or listening to it on Spotify or any of the other streaming platforms, if you're watching it on YouTube, you're in for treats because you can watch us run through the exercise, the five minute gut check, which I absolutely loved. But thank you for joining me. I'm sure that what is, so where, where can people find you? What is the best place for people to connect with you?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (57:08)
β They can find me on the mindfulgut.co.uk or I'm on mindfulgutprojects on Instagram. Those are probably my best ways of connecting with me.
Anneli Marinovich (57:18)
Fantastic. And where can they buy the book?
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (57:21)
All outlets everywhere, all outlets, yeah.
Anneli Marinovich (57:24)
all over. Fantastic.
Love it. Amazing. Okay. Well, thank you so much for listening or for watching. We will see you in the next episode. Thanks again, Cora. Lovely talking to you.
Cara Wheatley-McGrain (57:37)
You too, I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
